Help!
Bhaji, after a run of what I like to call ‘bleeding civilised’ nights in that I got to stay in MY bed ALONE and Bhaji slept in HER bed and with only one four am hours of dark and ungodly wake up, decided last night was the night to mix things up a bit.
Internet, last night I was awake on the hour and for most of every hour starting from one forty five in the morning. There’s ungodly and there’s positively bloody heathen. Again I can only observe that it is hard to sleep when your arm is going numb and somebody is sucking on your chest at random intervals and that bit where Miss Nightshift startled me to full wakefulness at seven am by loudly shitting through her nappy, down both legs and up her back and ONTO MY SHEETS (again) was really just totally unnecessary Parent Torture Bonus Point scoring.
In other words, I am clutching my fourth coffee for the day, I am duly urinating like a big, black horsey, I have a mild tremor and I can’t really hold a train of thought for more than about half a sentence. What?
See.
So, unusually and on variation from form, I am going to ask YOU to tell ME about something political. Mostly because I think LS is being a hard arsed raving nutter who should have a little more sympathy for people in the same reproductive boat as ourselves.
The tax man tells me that my medical expenses were twenty four thousand dollars in the Year Of Nightshift Conception. I expect the twins were little better three years back, ergo we, in a nation of snuggly ‘universal’ health coverage probably spent the best part of fifty kay generating three children.
I mean, seven kinds of holy crap, but ouch. Still, it could have been much more expensive if we’d lived elsewhere in the world. I’m factoring in six clomid cycles, three IVF stims and eight or nine or whatever it was embryo transfers, premature twins and a term singleton plus a reproductive partridge in a pear tree.
At over fifteen thousand dollars per child the little buggers really should be making my breakfast and ironing my work blouses because when you add THAT figure to my not inconsiderable study debts I am going to be able to retire comfortably some time in about the next century.
This is the post where I ask you if I’m mental or LS is, and yes, I am asking the Internet to award points on a political discussion.
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One of the things about living in the land of universal healthcare is that while we all justifiably enough bleat that it is big, unwieldy, inefficient and sloooooooow, at least there is some kind of IVF cover. Sure, the big clinics gouge a fairly healthy chunk more than the rebate paid and the rebate for reproductive things is capped lower than the rebate for new hips because babies are a lifestyle choice (insert your own opinion about this move here) after all, but at least there is coverage. A frozen transfer is about 1-2 k out of pocket, depending on your luck.
That’s not so bad.
We have significantly more elective single embryo transfers (eSET) than multiple ones these days because IVF is relatively affordable. eSET is the norm at many clinics. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but the flavour around the IF blogosphere suggests you US-ian types pay ungodly amounts of money and unsurprisingly tend towards transferring scary-mucho amounts of embryos and just sucking up the risk a bit.
Over time and anecdotally I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve read of young women with a high risk of multiple pregnancy transferring three or above embryos. Two seems to be the absolute minimum.
Not to horrify, but even twin pregnancies have a not-so-comfortable rate of Bad Things. Triplets are much scarier.
Locally, because eSET is common, the twin pregnancy rate from ART is now much lower than in times past. This has had a knock-on effect of fewer costly NICU admissions for premature twins i.e. the policy of at least partially funding IVF ultimately SAVES money, due to the reduction in NICU bed demand.
That’s actually been proven in real dollar terms.
LS thinks that the solution for the US problem of a very high multiple birth rate and prematurity cost related to expensive ART is to refuse insurance coverage for NICU admissions from deliberate multiple embryo transfers.
I guess it’s one strategy, but personally I don’t think it’s got legs.
It’s rather harsh. What one of us when desperate for success and financially pressured as most couples on the ART-merry-go-round are really wouldn’t ever transfer multiple embryos even with such a policy? I’m betting those ending up with twins and above would then just hope like crazy their twins would be the thirty eight week take home type. After all, fifty percent of twins are born at term, it’s a coinflip statistic.
The way I see things, all that this sort of policy would generate is that the ten percent of twins and more of higher order multiples who are severely preterm, plus a big chunk of the moderately preterm would still be in the NICU, anyway, and in about the same numbers as before.
The only difference is the debt punishment to the parents for their conception and birth just became unmanageably high.
So why exactly don’t insurance companies cover IVF more over your North American way? Evidence here shows that doing so with eSET would probably not only save money, but heartache and bad outcomes as well.
I think LS is wrong. Very wrong. I also think insurance in the US is a bit screwey. Thoughts?
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February 10, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Even if the PTB decided not to cover NICU claims, those babies would still be admitted and treated. Someone has to pay it. If the parents can’t, they end up forced into bankruptcy and the providers have to make it up somewhere. Eventually everyone’s taxes will get higher and higher to make up for the escalating amount of uncollectable debt.
February 10, 2012 at 11:47 pm
A post where I get to Rant about American Health Care! It freaks the hell out of me that they have to pay to see a doctor.
In Canada, yes, Health care is free and it’s not that slow (or maybe I’m just used to it?) It doesn’t seem any slower than the american health care..
As for twins, I think LSs idea is farking cruel and crazy, and won’t help thing (people can’t think that far ahead to twins actually needing a lengthly stay in the NICU). And sometimes they don’t my twins had 24 and 48 hours in the NICU and no major issues.
In Quebec they cover up to 3 rounds of IVF, but, they have to be eSET and no egg donors, sperm donors or surrogates (because that goes against their almighty belief system).
How about clinics have to have set parameters based on both the egg quality and IVF history (healthy eggs and a slight sperm issue shouldn’t equate to transferring 2 embryos). Messed up ugly looking embryos, should transfer 2 embryos. I think standards would make the difference.
But really IVF is only a small part of the battle, there are a hell of a lot of clomid HOM pregnancies (often given by family doctors and never monitored).
February 11, 2012 at 1:31 am
US insurance is ridiculous. My darling IVF daughter’s hospital birth still hasn’t been fully paid for by our insurance because they keep saying that she wasn’t on the policy at the time of her hospitalization. No kidding, she was being born. Then they said that the hospital was out-of-network for her but not me. I objected that we walked into the hospital as one person and if it was network for me, it was network for her. Then they decided that her dad’s insurance should pay, not mine, but we are all three covered under the exact same policy. It’s been nine months. I would like this to be finished.
For the IVF, insurance covered absolutely nothing. Not a penny. They paid only for gyn and ob appointments, but not a penny for the meds, retrieval, transfer, anything. We paid about twelve thousand total for the IVF; she was our first try.
We had most of that saved up ahead of time and the rest I put on a credit card and paid off within six months of retrieval.
She is totally and absolutely worth every penny.
Now we just have to decide if we want to do IVF again or just hope for a natural freebie. Since my cycles haven’t returned, as she still nurses throughout the night, it’s not an issue right now.
February 11, 2012 at 2:58 am
Insurance companies don’t cover IVF because having children is optional. You don’t need IVF treatment to save your life or maintain your health. To the insurance company, there’s no downside to not providing coverage, except a few whining women.
Fortunately for all of us, no one would be able to write up the conditions that LS would prefer without excluding someone with a legitimate need who would sue. The American Society of Reproductive Medicine recommends that no more than 2 embryos be transferred, and only in special cases should there be more. There are certainly some people who want twins so they can get it over with, but mostly people just want the best shot at getting a baby. Punishing them for attempting to better their odds seems selfish and cruel.
And in the long run, you’re not only punishing the parents, you’re punishing the children.
February 11, 2012 at 4:41 am
I think insurance is rather messed up here too. But the problem is that I don’t know exactly what to do about it. I do think LS’s idea is horrible though. That doesn’t seem like a solution that would realistically work at all. Everyone is an optimist before they are faced with things actually going wrong.
February 11, 2012 at 5:00 am
We’re military- I’m pretty sure our medical doesn’t cover much infertility stuff beyond diagnosis. BUT it covers everything else 100%. No copays. 25 weeker in the NICU needing four surgeries in her not quite 9 week life, 100% covered.
February 12, 2012 at 1:47 am
Pumpkin’s IUI with clomid was covered 0% beyond initial consultation & standard if testing. We paid around $1500 out of pocket for that- which ended up being more than hospital birth & 8 hours in NICU due to some weird confluence of being laid off & technically poor enough for the safety net of social insurance for kids to kick in. A much better job (that more than doubled our family income) meant our ‘freebie’ surprise Little Bear has ended up costing us nearly $4K out of pocket between ultrasounds, his kidney tests & a completely uneventful hospital birth. All because of co-pays/co-insurance, etc. I am now the demographic that picks up the tab on those unable-to-be paid procedures.Our health care system does not work well. Anything that forces parents into bankruptcy to save the lives of their children (no matter how they were brought into the world) just as punishment for not having better options is cruel and wrong & ultimately just hurts all health care/insurance recipients in the long run.
February 12, 2012 at 12:12 pm
I’ve got universal health care in Ontario, but since I didn’t block both my tubes with a nice case of PID, my IVF wasn’t covered. Male factor + PCO? Not good enough to be covered. I guess it would have been more expensive if the bloodwork and ultrasounds hadn’t been covered by OHIP. All but the sperm washing was covered for the IUIs I did too, so I can’t complain too much. My IVF cycle was $11000 out of pocket + $90 AMH testing + $250 for backup freezing of DH’s sperm. Then there were the meds, that were thankfully 100% covered by my health insurance when I was a resident. That’s no longer the case.
LS is crazy though if he thinks his solution is right. No one is going to let a baby die, and there will just be a lot of bad debt. Canada’s panel on infertility and adoption a couple years ago did recommend covering IVF and pushing for more SETs to avoid multiples. If couples didn’t get desperate with ovulation induction and end up with higher order multiples, we’d definitely be better off, as would we with fewer twins and triplets from slightly more aggressive IVF transfers.
February 14, 2012 at 3:35 am
As has been said, the US does not require companies to provide insurance for fertility treatment or IVF because having children is a choice and not a “medical” issue. Some states have mandated IUI/IVF coverage. I am not certain without looking up numbers, but I think those states have lower rates of mutiples. Current best practice is to transfer two embryos or just one embryo. I think the problem in the US is not completely IVF, but other forms of treatment. I had twins because of injectibles and IUI. I had only one mature egg based on the u/s before the IUI. Guess what? One matured after the fact and both eggs fertilized and implanted. Many couples take risks with fertility meds and IUI that they otherwise would not take because it is cheaper and IVF is so expensive. They choose to go with a cheaper method and a higher risk of multiples. I know that there are also some high number embryo transfers as well because of the cost. However, I do think that we have many REs that allow patients to take a risk with their choices instead of providing good education. My RE was very insistent that we not go forward with the IUI if there were 3 or more mature eggs, and he was a firm believer in really advising couples of the issues of two mature eggs — going so far as to really tell them that it is a high risk. After all, look what can happen with just one mature egg?
As for denying NICU coverage, I think that does nothing to solve the problem. I think it goes back to doctors helping couples make wise reproductive decisions and standing their ground when it comes to riskier procedures/transfers. However, when the success of your practice is dictated by IVF success rates related to positive pregnancy tests — and not the actual pregnancy outcome– it is too easy to be swayed by implanting more embryos or allowing an IUI with too many mature eggs. The insurance and medical communities need to take a firm, ethical stand on acceptable IVF/IUI practices.
February 15, 2012 at 12:12 am
LS is wrong. The proper solution (assuming system as a whole remains unchanged) is for insurance companies to get their heads out of their asses and realize how much these multi-premies are costing them, think carefully about where said premies come from, and start paying for IVF. It’s mind-blowingly stupid that they don’t already, given the money they’re wasting this way.
My insurance — very cheap, very good insurance, by the way, but only available for members of my union — pays for IVF (FETs, etc.) up to a cap price that would have let us do around 3 fresh cycles. Choosing eSET was easy-peasy for us, under those conditions. My clinic was very happy not to have to talk us into it, and we were very happy to lower the chances of twins, etc. One full-term (just barely) baby, one essentially healthy Mama; we saved the insurance even more money by leaving the hospital early following a basically uncomplicated birth. There’s every chance that wouldn’t have happened had we faced financial pressure to transfer more than one.
The trouble with LS’s logic — besides that it’s kind of mean — is that people do not make hard decisions rationally. The same people who (in a fairly desperate situation, it must be said) are willing to risk less-healthy multiples rather than risk no babies at all are still going to take that risk under LS’s plan. If we (collective humans) are willing to take a risk that our children might not be born on time and healthy, we will certainly take the risk of paying for it in dollars. This is an entirely different emotional category from risking having no children at all.
February 15, 2012 at 12:29 am
oh, yeah, and what Mel said about high-order multiples from IUI because it’s either covered by insurance or cheaper out of pocket. one day in the NICU costs more than an IVF cycle, dumb insurance companies. sheesh.
February 28, 2012 at 7:18 am
And by he logic, they might as well not cover anything caused by stupid decisions. Lung cancer due to smoking? Obesity-related illness due to Twinkie Fever (It’s real…lookit up). Mangled bodies due to drunk driving? I dare say that much of what goes wrong with the human body is because of our own choices. Environmental and otherwise. So, who REALLY deserves to be treated? Innocent newborn babies, no matter how they got here.
February 28, 2012 at 7:18 am
*his*